Real World Misogyny.

There is a third world country Women are regarded as the obligatory servants to men.

Women are routinely expected to dance attendance on men— bow to them, hold open doors, push in chairs, etc, and make other routine gestures of obeisance, to remain silent when a man speaks, to never contradict a man, to agree with all he says and do exactly as he wishes.

Women are expected to marry young, and cast aside any ambitions for their own life. If they refuse, they are culturally scorned as selfish children. Women are expected to bring as much wealth as possible into the marriage, as a dowry to justify their worth as a spouse. If she does not bring enough wealth into the marriage, she will hear of it continually from the parents of the husband, who will treat her with thinly veiled contempt. Men on the other hand are encouraged to put off marriage as long as possible, so that they can climb as high as possible in social status with other men before settling down.

Once women do marry, they are expected to provide for their households, tend to the household’s finances and upkeep, and to be legally and morally responsible for the welfare of their children— they are expected to work outside of the home, to even take a second job if the money is needed. Yet if a man wants the same job, even if he is less qualified or experienced, she is expected to step aside so that the man can take the “status” enhancing position.

In a divorce, the woman loses everything, even her children, because the man is the patriarch of the family and holds absolute authority. A man who finds out a woman is carrying his child can demand she have an abortion, regardless of her wishes. She can be forced to give up her child for adoption to strangers if the man so says. Despite being expected to raise and provide for the children, she is regarded in this patriarchal society as nothing more than an incubator for the man’s seed. In a crisis situation, men and their heirs are rescued first… and then the women if there’s time. Women are expendable.

The cultural portrayal of women is terrible. They are routinely portrayed in their movies, books, plays and popular culture as emotional, childish, irresponsible, under-intelligent, and in constant need of supervision by men. As said earlier, women who do not marry are socially shunned as selfish and childish. They receive terrible social treatment, brutal punishments for crimes for which a man receives a slap on the wrist, receive inferior education, inferior medical care, inferior legal status and have no parental, procreative, or marital rights, and are considered unnatural and unwomanly if they do not happily yield to this state of affairs. It is a dismal state of misogyny that has been decried by thousands— to stunning indifference from the civilized world.

Want to know what country this is? Easy.

Switch the genders in all of the above, and look out the window.

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Real World Misogyny. — 19 Comments

    • I did not say that the things you describe are not true; only that when you go looking for evidence in support of a position, you will find it. Whether that evidence is true or not is not the point.

      It is an equal lesson that if you go looking for evidence that argues against a position, you will find it.

      The lesson, which is usually left for the student to figure out, is that going to look for evidence supporting an idea, and finding it, is not in itself the proper ritual to determine whether that idea is true.

      • I’m not entirely clear on exactly what you’re arguing, but it sounds an awful lot like “trying to argue a theory or idea by providing EVIDENCE for it is so passe.” What, then, is the alternative?

        If the alternative is to search out all evidence relating to an issue and then make a theory based on that, well and good, but how do you know that’s not what RH did? You seem to be taking a rhetorical device very poorly, and giving only the barest of attempted rebuttals that similarly “rebut” just about every argument ever made in the history of human thought.

        Personally, I have observed some of the trends in the OP, though not all of them; perhaps there is a difference based on where I live (it’s not in the South, I’ll tell you that much). A more thorough analysis broken down by various areas of the US might be desirable.

        • If that’s what you take from my post, then I doubt I can convince you otherwise.

          For anyone else reading these comments, I’ll state that my intention was to describe the idea that there is always both a certain amount of evidence for any given proposition, and a certain amount of evidence against it; and that it’s possible to measure those amounts to determine which side has the preponderance of the evidence. Working out how to deal with the varying levels of uncertainty about everything is… a more complicated issue, and of little point to get into before establishing the foundations. (One place to start might be the short essay, ‘Twelve Virtues of Rationality’, at .)

  1. I wonder if this comment will even be posted. Oh well, here goes, reversing the genders all the way, as you suggest.

    I’m pretty sure I’ve never seen anyone of any gender bow to another person, outside of Japan. That went out of style back in the 1800’s I believe. Most people shake hands now. Holding open doors, pulling out chairs, not speaking while another person is talking; that just sounds like basic manners. And I’m reasonably certain that “agree with everything and never contradict” is Hollywood stereotyped bullshit, in those cases when it isn’t played for laughs in a “let the woman think she’s winning” sort of way.

    People don’t even expect their kids to be moved out by their early twenties anymore, much less married. And I’m fairly certain it goes both directions anyway; people want their kids to get hitched, pop out some grandkids, etc. A “dowry;” a holdover from the far off days of about the beginning of man to roughly the 90’s, that is, “It’s a man’s job,” with the implication that a woman would never be able to handle it. Really, that’s just our own bloody fault. For that matter, it’s a losing battle either way for both genders; whether you’re a man or a woman, dating or marrying someone with a significantly higher income level than you, gets you labelled a “gold digger.”

    One again, providing for the household; that’s a couple thousand years of us insisting it’s “a man’s job.” And show me the man who doesn’t take some measure of pride in being the main provider, and I’ll show you a man who had a shotgun wedding. I don’t know of any case ever of a man being “expected to step aside.” Hell, I don’t think anyone ever has that expectation thrust upon them. I’m pretty sure with the way 99% of hiring processes go, they get chosen over, not told to step aside.

    “A woman who finds out a man is carrying her child can demand he have an abortion, regardless of his wishes.”
    “Despite being expected to raise and provide for the children, he is regarded in this matriarchal society as nothing more than an incubator for the woman’s seed.”

    Yeaaah, gender reversal doesn’t really work for that part now does it? Nitpicking aside and addressing the paragraph on the whole, I figured you, of all people RH, would favor “greater effort, greater reward.” Man shoots his seed inside woman, his job’s done. Woman carries seed for nine months, bloating up before undergoing arguable one of the most painful experiences one can go through and still live- who’s putting more effort into that, precisely? But I digress, that’s not why it works like it does either. Once again, it’s societal expectations. Raising children is a woman’s job. A man has better things to do, and would be terrible at it anyway. And so forth. Once more, self-enforced, our own fault. And women and children first? I might be willing to agree insofar as “Equality means a man’s life is worth just as much as a woman’s,” but well, you seem to imply the same grudging animosity for the fact that children would be rescued first, as well.

    Cultural portrayal of men: Admittedly, precisely as you said. But at the end of the day, their childish charm wins the girl over. They become their beau. Perhaps they’re portrayed terribly, but at least they’re portrayed as people, and not simply as some prize to be won over and earned for their hard work in changing/saving the world, or whatever.

    Education: And yet they’re still paid less.

    Medical care: And yet while they pay out of pocket for birth control pills (Which have an astounding number of benefits beyond their name), medicare funneled $172 million into buying us dudes penis pumps. Penis. Pumps. Not to mention funding viagra, which has literally no other purpose beyond getting a man hard.

    I could go on, but I’m sensing that by this point, either this comment is never going to be approved anyway, or it will have all the effect of throwing eggs at a solid brick wall. In either case, my piece is said.

    Tl;Dr version

    Terrible job of describing “male misogyny” that fails to account for the number of issues that were self-inflicted by our own manly hands; but a very accurate description of India, I believe.

    • “Education: And yet they’re still paid less.”

      No. They’re not. 60 cents in the dollar or whatever the statistic du jour is relies on averages, not apples to apples comparisons.

  2. I’m pretty sure I see men bowing often. Those 1800’s bows are out of fashion, a bow today is nodding the head and inclining the back 10 degrees or so. Holding open doors, pulling out chairs, not speaking while another person is talking is indeed good manners. Women aren’t expected to have good manners, it seems. Women also get to complain if the man does or does not perform these little obesiances. I’m absolutely certain that a man who contradicts and doesn’t agree with a woman at work will get written up for creating a hostile work environment. I did, and being correct is not a defense. Laugh off a demotion and loss of $15k/year salary?

    Nowadays, for women it’s get through college and then experience life! Live on your own, have fun, and then maybe around 30 start looking for some chump. Men are asked about their marital prospects and what they are doing starting at age 24. Women aren’t expected to bring anything but debt into a marriage, after all, they’re building up life experiences. Men better be making the money and have a decent bank account to be a serious contender.

    Yes, it’s the man’s job to provide. The woman doesn’t have to do squat, but it’s the man’s job to provide.
    Men being expected to step aside? Definitely. In STEM (that’s science, technology, engineering and mathematics) any woman who has the minimum qualifications WILL be promoted as far as those go; if the man’s lucky he may get to do the work she’s ‘too busy’ to do. Been there, done that, got lots of T-shirts.

    Reproduction is absurd when you reverse things, isn’t it? Going word by word when you weren’t before is a bit more than nitpicking, but let’s move on, as you said. Rights and responsibilities. The man has no rights, only responsibilities. If the woman decides to abort, that’s what happens. Keep the child, and the man gets to pay for 18+ years. Greater effort, greater reward? Yeah, right. I’ll take 9 months and a few hours of pain over 18+ years of paying over half my earnings (with the threat of debtor’s prison if I commit the sin of losing my job and fall behind).

    As far as raising children being a woman’s job, single women are the worst at it. Single men have better success at having their children grow up and become successful than single women do (the best is a married couple). Societal expectations? More like lies for woman’s sake. Enforced by the courts and cheered by women across the US. Ooh, you agree that a man’s life is worth as much as a woman’s! Grudgingly, of course, while attempting to imply a non-existent animosity towards children.

    Ah, so child/man ‘wins’, becoming the woman’s wallet. Whee! No, modern women aren’t portrayed as prizes. Good thing, as they really aren’t prizes.

    Education: and they’re actually paid more. The 75 cents on the dollar is and always has been a lie. Even the Labor department admits it. Control for the same job, the same experience, take away overtime, and women make 2-4% more an hour than a man does. That’s not much more, but it’s definitely not less. Men make more because they do the nasty dangerous jobs women won’t do. It’s why men have over 90% of workplace deaths and injuries.

    Medical care: Nice strawman there. Over 2/3 of medicare goes to women, medicare covers breast implants (would you like to guess how much more money than $172 million that is? Thought not).


    Excellent job of being a mangina. Too bad it won’t get you any. Obviously you haven’t been to India, and your cranial/rectal inversion is past the point of brain damage.

  3. In a less extreme way, RH does have a point.
    Check out this video pointing out discrimination of men.
    So, there are real issues when it comes to assumption of guilt based on gender. For example: 40% of domestic violence victims are men.

    In the past child custody might automatically be awarded to the mother. (And yet… in even further past it was the father the custody was awarded to. Oh, yeah, and a man could have his wife committed to an asylum for any reason he chose.) Okay, wandering a bit on the topic here…

    Discrimination happens, we are all guilty. It is the psychology of humans to put things in little boxes and make quick judgement calls based on perceptions of the box category. Does that make it right? Of course not.

    However, I feel that claiming an overall misogyny against men exists isn’t accurate. Here is what it would actually look like:

      • Yes, it is called misandry. I did not realize agreeing with you on something and clarfying my own opinion as a feeling “don’t mean spit”.
        I wonder if you would share your views on the video links I mentioned?

  4. I dunno, this is pretty much assuming a worst case scenario. While obviously this happens sometimes, very few men, I think, have to deal with everything on this list, and frankly I think most won’t have to deal with any of it, at least not any more than women do. One thing I have to note is that cultural portrayals of men are usually pretty positive: they are generally the protagonists. I could go on about individual things I disagree with, but that’s not that important. My main point is that since reading this and thinking on it, I’ve realized that both men and women have to put up with different kinds of bad stuff (women getting less money and having a higher rate of victimization / woman-on-man domestic abuse not being taken seriously) but ultimately people have to realize that both sides have it bad. Rather than taking sides and seeing their own gender as the one that’s worse off, maybe people need to object to injustice wherever they see it, regardless of what gender the victim and perpetrator happen to be.

    • no, this is pretty much a daily case scenario. Sit down sometime and I’ll tell you the fate of one of the deacons at my father’s church sometime…

      • I wouldn’t mind hearing it, though it also occurs to me that some of this may be region-specific issues. America’s a big country, and when I think about it, most of what you wrote sounds kinda like something you might see in one of the more old-fashioned, deep south states, which I know you’re from. I probably should have taken that into consideration…

        In my personal experience, the whole first paragraph sounds almost overly fancy. Most people I know don’t do it or expect it from anyone aside from occasionally opening doors, and that’s for people of either gender who just happen to be walking behind you.

        For the second paragraph, my parents were both very young when they married, and due to lack of money on both sides we had to live with my paternal grandparents. (My maternal parents were divorced, with the grandfather not wanting much to do with us and my grandmother not having enough room in her house, though she did watch me and my sister regularly on occasion.) Due to the financial struggles, my parents advised both me an my sister to make sure we’re more ready than they were when we get married.

        Third paragraph, in my family both parents worked single jobs. My dad ended up advancing higher in his job, and when my mother wasn’t working it was primarily due to being pregnant with my sister. Even today my dad makes more money, though in an interesting side note he’s expressed that he thinks ‘stay at home dad’ would be a fun job: he enjoys housework. Perhaps you’ve got more of a point there. On the matter of men stepping aside for women to take jobs, I rarely see that at my job. Most supervisors are women, but most managers are men.

        As for divorce, my parents divorced very amicably, and they shared custody of me and my sister. However, I’ve seen the ‘woman cheats the guy out of everything’ issue more than the inverse. I don’t know the exact statistics, but I don’t wanna make TOO big of a debate over this. I’ll let ya have that point.

        In the fifth paragraph, I can see the point in the media portrayals, but I feel that the negativity and universality of it is exaggerated. I think there’s a bit of a reason for it at times too: Take Fry and Leela of Futurama for example. Yes, Fry is the male, and also the biggest idiot in the series with Leela to tie him down, but if there’s two things that viewers love, its 1: funny idiot protagonists, and 2: MALE protagonists, simply because males protagonists are often more relatable to the male target audience. Leela ends up as both intelligent and female in order to act as a love interest and foil that compliments him. I think most sitcoms with idiot male protagonists follow this rationale, but honestly that’s just me letting ideas fall out of my head. (wow, this has been thought provoking…)

        Also in paragraph 5, I will concede that women get away with more. Education, legal status, and medical care? I find it hard to believe, but I won’t outright deny it until I’ve seen the numbers.

        … wow, that was longer than I meant to go, but it’s an interesting topic, I just cant stop o_0

        • You submit a large number of personal anecdotes in answer to comments about social trends. When someone tells you an epidemic is sweeping the nation, this is not falsified by proclaiming “well I don’t feel sick.”

          Yes, audiences love dumb male characters. Do they have much choice? It’s not like there are any other kinds for them to choose from. Men, especially husbands, are portrayed ROUTINELY as dumb, weak, incompetent, buffoonish and inferior to the women in their lives.

    • “they are generally the protagonists”

      They are also the background details that typically get splashed by the collateral damage caused by the conflict between the protagonist and the antagonist.

  5. It’s real, it happens, and it is FAR worse than you think. Most divorces are decided in favor of the wife, even if she is the instigator and has been unfaithful to the husband. 90% of custody cases are decided in favor of the mother. Men get longer jail sentences, more severe treatment by police, poorer job options, fewer benefits, and are expected to subsidize women’s lifestyles and offspring– even when the children aren’t theirs! Female-specific health issues like breast or cervical cancer get epic levels of charity and funding; male-specific health issues like prostate cancer get jack squat. Even though 40% of spousal abuse victims are men, there are ZERO programs or safe houses for men (and if you think “a big strong man doesn’t need that,” you’ve never met a psycho ex-wife or girlfriend with an affinity for settling arguments with butcher knives.)Young boys are drugged into a stupor by educators to keep them from acting like boys. Men as a gender are portrayed in a disparaging manner that would get people marching in the streets if it was done against an ethnicity. Men are biased against by employers, by schools, by social services, by the police and by the courts. It’s background noise to our entire culture. And it happens to EVERY. SINGLE. MALE.

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